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dwergs
Regarding: Messenger Plus! 3.20 with Usage Statistics a matter of days now posted at Mess with MSN Messenger.

What do you think about Patchou's decision to include usage tracking in the next version of Plus! Will you turn the option off or leave it like it is? Are you, despite all guarantees, still a bit suspicious? Do you think there were other, better possbilities to get feedback on the most popular features from the user community?
MIDAS
i wouldnt personally, don't like any risk on my network, or possible exploits and stuff... user posted image
RebelSean
Okay guys lets not get all hostile here. There is a option on the MAIN preference page. All it does is send counts to his server. Nothing more... Please read THIS thread for more information...

http://msgplus.mybboard.com/showthread.php?tid=31205

I think that it is okay. What is wrong with sending a few numbers to patchou's server about what your using?? I see nothing wrong with that...
Millenium_Edition
QUOTE(XxRebelSeanxX @ Sep 13 2004, 01:57 PM)
Okay guys lets not get all hostile here. There is a option on the MAIN preference page. All it does is send counts to his server. Nothing more... Please read THIS thread for more information...

http://msgplus.mybboard.com/showthread.php?tid=31205

I think that it is okay. What is wrong with sending a few numbers to patchou's server about what your using?? I see nothing wrong with that...
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that's the whole point of this thread. to agree or not?

i'm just against the fact that it hasn't got a notice in the installer and that it is enabled by default.
Stigmata
so patchou just wants some more statistics???


i realy dont see the point, he just realy wants to know when u use messenger?

why do u wana know that?
RebelSean
Wrong. He wants to know what features are used the most in Messenger Plus! so he can focus more attention to those features...Like find more bugs, update the features...ect....msn_happy.gif
Rolando
I'm pretty ok with it. I know Patchou wouldn't be sending stuff he shouldn't be, and I am sure he wants those statistics to even improve MP! =)
Ben™
I trust Patchou msn_happy.gif It's not like he's installing keyloggers and what-not msn_happy.gif
Stigmata
QUOTE
It's not like he's installing keyloggers and what-not msn_happy.gif


what pulse msn_grin.gif
RebelSean
*Cough* whatpulse just counts not logs msn_happy.gif
Pure_BY
I think this is a very good idea, but I am afraid MsgPlus! will be again attacked with all the f*cked up n00bs, that "plus iz a hak tul, i sai u ma firwal detcted it wnted 2 sent mu paswod to plus haker teem"
Just like it was with sponsor program and viruses...

But well, i am very curious to see how this will finish :/
Millenium_Edition
I'm still convinced it's about presentation. The sponsor program is presented as a license agreement and the option is enabled by default without confirmation or anything.

sure, you have to read whatever you install
sure, you should always check the "privacy" tab in the general options window.

sure. msn_rolleyes.gif
Pure_BY
QUOTE(Millenium_Edition @ Sep 14 2004, 04:41 PM)
I'm still convinced it's about presentation. The sponsor program is presented as a license agreement and the option is enabled by default without confirmation or anything.

No, it is not




QUOTE(Millenium_Edition @ Sep 14 2004, 04:41 PM)
sure, you have to read whatever you install
sure, you should always check the "privacy" tab in the general options window.
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Yes, you have to. If you say you ACCEPT it, than you ACCEPT it.
Millenium_Edition
QUOTE
No, it is not
i ment the statistics option, and that one is enabled by default.
QUOTE
Yes, you have to. If you say you ACCEPT it, than you ACCEPT it.
of course, but if you're like new at computing and you can't install if you click "i decline" in regular setups, then you install plus, you always click "i accept" as like if it were automatic. point is, patchou could have made a window with 2 buttons: "Install with sponsor" - "Install without sponsor". get the point? msn_confused.gif
Zero1
I would install it as long as i knew what was being transmitted.

This would improve Plus!, but i dont know how much use my one would be, i dont use many of the features msn_wink.gif

Maybie the installer should have a thing like FireFox has when trying to install an extension off the web, the button enables itself after 5 seconds giving the user reading time for what they are about to install.
Pure_BY
QUOTE(Millenium_Edition @ Sep 14 2004, 05:51 PM)
i ment the statistics option, and that one is enabled by default.
of course, but if you're like new at computing and you can't install if you click "i decline" in regular setups, then you install plus, you always click "i accept" as like if it were automatic. point is, patchou could have made a window with 2 buttons: "Install with sponsor" - "Install without sponsor". get the point? msn_confused.gif
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Yeah, sorry, i got you totally wrong. In fact, I agree with you.
timothy
I don’t object to it, statistics are very useful, it helps the developer a lot. And in my opinion it’s not a violation of your privacy, because it only sends statistics about "what options do you like". Websites are logging more information about you then MSGPlus will, and they don’t ask if you want them to, and I don’t here people complaining about that.
Stigmata
QUOTE(XxRebelSeanxX @ Sep 14 2004, 11:33 AM)
*Cough* whatpulse just counts not logs msn_happy.gif
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lol msn_grin.gif

right click the whatpulse icon in the taskbar msn_grin.gif
what is above about????

PWNED!!!! msn_grin.gif
RebelSean
Exit WhatPulse.....nvm.....Pulse log. And it has your keys and clicks in numbers?



Omg people. its a few numbers to patchou's server. ANONYMOUSLY. however you spel it.

Pure_by your so right. The n00bs will be saying that.. And I will have a shortcut on my keyboard with the text for the reply....Like the "spyware" threads...:dodgy:
Zero1
Just curious, who accepted the CIP (Customer Improvement Programme) from microsoft when they first installed messenger?
CookieRevised
QUOTE
original posted by Patchou on the MsgPlus Forums: http://msgplus.mybboard.com/showthread.php?tid=31205

My software is not a spyware just because it sends a couple of bytes of statistical information to my server once a week. This is the kind of mixup that makes everyone thinks everything is a spyware nowadays.

Please who don't want that kind of thing will be sart enough to open their prefs and uncheck the option that sits on the first page. All the other people will just not care at all (and that's the vast majority). The only thing that could afraid an average user is a message box prompt asking to send statistics information to a server and that's why I won't do it. I can't add it in the installer either because it would get confused with the sponsor stuff, and finally, I can't put warnings when you start Messenger because I've never wanted to prompt anything after Plus! was installed.

People who are suspicious will just monitor their internet connection and will see that the data that's being sent is no more than something like that:

stats.msgplus-update.net/msgplus-stats1.php?c=CAN&piiu=1&pciu=1&pw=1
&pp=1&pqt=1&psp=1&qs=1&ufc=1&pi=1&fw=1


And to make everyone happy, here is the meaning of what's being sent... all capital letters of a word form the php parameter:

enum EStats1 {
  ES1_QuickTextUse = 0x1,
  ES1_PlusImIconUse = 0x2,
  ES1_PlusCtcIconUse = 0x4,
  ES1_PrefWindow = 0x8,
  ES1_PrefPlugins = 0x10,
  ES1_PrefQuickText = 0x20,
  ES1_PrefQuickIcons = 0x40,
  ES1_PrefStatusPreset = 0x80,
  ES1_UseEncryption = 0x100,
  ES1_QuoteSender = 0x200,
  ES1_UseQuoteSender = 0x400,
  ES1_UseFindText = 0x800,
  ES1_UseFormatCodes = 0x1000,
  ES1_TextRecall = 0x2000,
  ES1_PluginInstalled = 0x4000,
  ES1_UseScheduler = 0x8000,
  ES1_UseLockMessenger = 0x10000,
  ES1_UseBossProtect = 0x20000,
  ES1_UsePersoStatusName = 0x40000,
  ES1_UsePersoStatusMsg = 0x80000,
  ES1_UseAutoAccept = 0x100000,
  ES1_HideAdvert = 0x200000,
  ES1_WordFilters = 0x400000,
  ES1_Pop3Emails = 0x800000,
  ES1_EventLogViewer = 0x1000000,
  ES1_EventLogFile = 0x2000000,
  ES1_ChatLogFilter = 0x4000000,
  ES1_CustomNames = 0x8000000,
  ES1_UseSpecialTags = 0x10000000,
  ES1_UseOverrideTextFormat = 0x20000000,
  ES1_UseSoundCommands = 0x40000000,
  ES1_FloatWindows = 0x80000000
};

Patchou


The option is on and will stay on with me. I have no problems with it sending a weekly "report". This is, IMHO, the best option to get statistics of his worldwide users. Asking with a poll on a forum is also a possebility, but isn't relaible at all since only a handfull (compared to the millions of users of Plus!) will actually vote on such polls...
lylesback2
Msgplus 3.20? or 3.10?
RebelSean
3.20...I need to get a mod to rename my thread...It was goign to be 3.10 then patchou announced that it is goign to be 3.20 then i couldnt edit my post....Sooooooooo yes its 3.20! msn_happy.gif
Patchou
Err.... I'm sorry that this had to be my first post but...
Millenium, do you plan on being your usual crappy-personality self on this forum too or is it just that you don't notice how you act any more? it's not because a thread mentions "Plus!" that you have to give your usual I-Hate-Patchou speech. Apparently, mostly everyone here is ok with the way my things are being "presented", you don't need to post again and again tons of futile reasons to prove that I'm satan reincarnated.

As I said previously, I can't add an option in the installer because it will get mixed with the sponsor's agreement. If you don't believe me, then check all the posts on the net aboutthe old installer saying that you ahve to go in Custom Installation mode or else, you don't get the sponsor agreement. Also, as discussed previously, if the option was off by default, absolutely nobody would bother to turn it on (myself included). I asked the opinion of many people on IRC and on Messenger and most of them agreed that the current way was finewith them. I have to remind you that I'm only sending a couple of boolean stats to a http server here, there's no security issue, there's no privacy issue, there's not even a reason to talk about it really (as I said previously, the auto-update already sends two or three stats like your current language and the version of Windows installed, nobody ever complained about it).

I'll be happy to answer to anyone who would have concerns here, just try to be a little more constructive than my old compatriote Millenium.
Stigmata
would firewalls pick this up as illigal connection?


is there anyway a user could interperate this to well... **** up your server

? hacking camperbilities...?
Millenium_Edition
QUOTE
Err.... I'm sorry that this had to be my first post but...
Millenium, do you plan on being your usual crappy-personality self on this forum too or is it just that you don't notice how you act any more?

look dude i wasn't the only one who agreed with this, it has been said numerous times. I have respect for you and I admire your work.
QUOTE
it's not because a thread mentions "Plus!" that you have to give your usual I-Hate-Patchou speech.

i don't do that because it mentions plus. i give my opinion, if i was on winamp forums i'd say the same thing.
QUOTE
Apparently, mostly everyone here is ok with the way my things are being "presented", you don't need to post again and again tons of futile reasons to prove that I'm satan reincarnated.

lemme just remind you 60% of the forum users are from the msgplus forums. so please, don't compare me with the forum users.
ZiPP
Let's not get nasty here people. They are usage statistics, optional usage statistics. No biggie, so lets stop whining! msn_happy.gif

If you feel youself getting too fumed about pathetic little things, have a beer msn_beer.gif.

Reminder to read the rules. Stay on topic.

Thanks a lot.
Zero1
QUOTE(ZiPP @ Sep 15 2004, 04:12 PM)
Let's not get nasty here people. They are usage statistics, optional usage statistics. No biggie, so lets stop whining! msn_happy.gif

If you feel youself getting too fumed about pathetic little things, have a beer msn_beer.gif.

Reminder to read the rules. Stay on topic.

Thanks a lot.
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Beer! thats what i forgot! thx for reminding me msn_wink.gif

Anyway, the usage statistics. What are people so afraid of? That its going to log lewd conversations with your gf / mistress and send them back to patchou? That its going to scan your hard disk for warez? I dont think Patchou really cares about whats on your disk or what you are typing.
Patchou
QUOTE
I dont think Patchou really cares about whats on your disk or what you are typing.

True msn_happy.gif. Now, if you allow me, I'll take a Pepsi, not a beer (yeah, I'm such a geek msn_nerd.gif).
anand
That is bad thing from Patchou. I don't like this idea.
Zero1
QUOTE(Patchou @ Sep 15 2004, 05:04 PM)
True msn_happy.gif. Now, if you allow me, I'll take a Pepsi, not a beer (yeah, I'm such a geek  msn_nerd.gif).
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msn_disappointed.gif alien... pp.gif

QUOTE(anand @ Sep 15 2004, 05:11 PM)
That is bad thing from Patchou. I don't like this idea.
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Why not?
Stigmata
any reason anand ?


ill have a zero's marvelous coding fuel msn_happy.gif

QUOTE
lemme just remind you 60% of the forum users are from the msgplus forums. so please, don't compare me with the forum users.


are from? since when are we owned by the msgplus forums...most of us havnt posted in msgplus for ages... or are not frequent posters like yourself


and sorry patchou but would you be able to comment on my post

QUOTE(edited version)
would firewalls pick this up as illigal connection?


is there a way where the user can change which data is being sent. eg virus ect. could they intercept the message? would a return be sent to say that the information has been recieved?
Zero1
QUOTE(Stigmata @ Sep 15 2004, 05:19 PM)
any reason anand ?
would firewalls pick this up as illigal connection?
is there a way where the user can change which data is being sent. eg virus ect. could they intercept the message? would a return be sent to say that the information has been recieved?
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SP2 would pick it up as MsgPlus.exe trying to access the internet etc.. Not sure about other firewalls.
Dan
QUOTE(Zero1 @ Sep 15 2004, 12:13 AM)
Just curious, who accepted the CIP (Customer Improvement Programme) from microsoft when they first installed messenger?
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I do msn_happy.gif
Patchou
Well, chances are that you already told your firewall to let Messenger send data on the net so you probably won't get a warning. Actualy, you won't get more warning that with the auto-update feature, both of them are http requests.

Now, as for viruses and security issues, that's just plain impossible. The only thing that could happen is that a program would change the data sent to my server to mess my stats. I don't analyse anything that is returned by the server for stats and when Ido (for the auto-update for example), I read the result as text data, nothing can be executed from there

If there was a possible exploit (which I insist again, is technically jsut not possible), it would already be used withthe auto-update feature. I make a point in not opening any port myself on my users's computers, that way, I escape the big and frigthening security topic.

Last note: don't be too afraid of what you read on the net about exploits, security issues, hacking, etc....the only thing that generally get hacked are web servers. I've been using a computer for ten years now and the only tiem I got a virus was in DOS 6.2 msn_happy.gif. Nobody will ever bother to try to enter in yourcomputer and steal your girlfriend's photos.
Stigmata
lol i hope that last note wasnt aimed at me msn_happy.gif

but ive had about 15 viruses... before avg msn_happy.gif

and ive had a mate **** up my pc by making a program that deletes rundll32.dll

not realy a mate after that..

any other features?
lylesback2
Ahh patchou!! sorry i abondon your forum msn_embarrassed.gif you can understand, same topics day in.. day out. needed to branch myself.

It's great to hear another update of Msgplus is coming out! but im MOVING soon! and i might miss your update! until earily october. I move end of september pp.gif
Wabz
My one serious question is How are the statistics going to be used exactly? Devolp new ideas for features? Advance more used features. Draft out less popular features?

BTW you probably notice the only two real posters at the msgplus forums are myself and cookie revised. We're both in the 3000's and thats not just because we like msgplus we're both interested in messenger as a whole as well. And msgplus was the most active place for messenger discussion 18months ago when i first registered there.

So please don't critise people for where they register. It's there choice. I feel we expect less of a newbie atmosphere here since everyone here realistically has managed to install messenger and are more interested in how they can add to it or discover new features first.
RebelSean
He wants to know were to focus his attention to what features. And find more bugs in those featuers..

And excuse me. Just because you have 3000 posts dont mean anything. I have over 1000 and have been there for like 5 months unlike you who have been there for years.

WDZ USA 03-28-2002 4453
CookieRevised Belgium 07-29-2003 4385
Guido Buenos Aires, Argentina 12-09-2002 4050
Choli Requena - Valencia - España 01-09-2003 3713
Chrono Santiago, Chile 04-21-2002 3660
Mnjul Taiwan 11-09-2002 3440
Patchou Quebec, Canada 04-21-2002 3352
Wabz My bedroom 01-08-2003 3132
BooGhost Hyrule, PERU 05-07-2003 3093

Those have 3000 posts. Why the hell does it matter? post counts don't matter. Just to letcha know.
CookieRevised
[OFF TOPIC]
XxRebelSeanxX, With all respect but you're the last person who has the right in saying something about postcount, so to speak...

No, postcounts don't matter, but they give an indication on how active someone is. And "active" doesn't nessecairly means "helpfull", although it is in many occasions (see the list you gave). But, in all honesty XxRebelSeanxX, if they would delete every offtopic, spam, and/or nonsense post of yours, you wouldn't be left with many posts... (and that would be also the case on this forum it seems)...

And don't go all: "why don't the mods delete the posts then". Because you know very well that that would be almost inpossible. It's not for nothing that you've been banned almost 10 times (or was it even more) for spamming, posting off topic, etc... (in short: being non-helpfull) ...

msn_sarcastic.gif
[/OFF TOPIC]


QUOTE(Wabz @ Sep 16 2004, 04:38 PM)
How are the statistics going to be used exactly?  Devolp new ideas for features?  Advance more used features.  Draft out less popular features?
From what I know he's gonna use it to know on which features to focus and improve. The features which are used less aren't going to be removed (he promised msn_grin.gif), but will not be developped further either.

eg: If the Schedule is the most used feature, he will develop it further to include more options and things. If the Schedule is the less used feature it is left alone and no further development is done for that...
Stigmata
so what i have 1500 msn_confused.gif


whooo im cool....

cookie revised is one of the most dedicated helpers on the forum

easily....

yeh i remember back in the day when i first joined up. i guess im one of the main reasons the forum became a spammy place. and i am indeed sorry for that. and im also sorry for going offtopic in this thread.. **Sorry**


back on topic

yes as cookie said above, patchou is going to use the statistics to find out which features we use, dont use.. the ones we use, apdapt and the ones we dont...maybe trash them ... msn_confused.gif who knows
sean
QUOTE(Zero1 @ Sep 15 2004, 01:13 AM)
Just curious, who accepted the CIP (Customer Improvement Programme) from microsoft when they first installed messenger?
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I dont, I just dont want to, might decide to send its stats to microsoft while I am trying to frag someone and lose because of it? Dialup sucks pp.gif


And guys... Please do keep on topic
lylesback2
GUYS! stick to the topic please... this isn't msgplus forums! this is mess.be forums!!!!!

Back on! Patchou will take stats such as, what option you use the most, how often you use it, what features you do / do not use / oftenly use / used once, etc...

He doesnt take any personal Information... Please read mess.be front page and his post on www.mgsplus.net forums. He clearly writes what he will obtain.
anand
Well on dialup connection like mine, I don't want to keep sending data and waste my bandwidth.

Other thing is that what exactly is the use of Patchou collecting data? and that aloso in large quantity as people use messenger 24 hrs...

I still believe, somone will find some way to break it and misuse it. It definately looks like adding security hole for someone to break away and should be done away.
ZiPP
QUOTE(anand @ Sep 17 2004, 03:46 PM)
Well on dialup connection like mine, I don't want to keep sending data and waste my bandwidth.

Other thing is that what exactly is the use of Patchou collecting data? and that aloso in large quantity as people use messenger 24 hrs...

I still believe, somone will find some way to break it and misuse it. It definately looks like adding security hole for someone to break away and should be done away.
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You're being totally paranoid. The data is OUTBOUND, it cannot be used as an exploit on your own system.

As for bandwidth you're looking at a few byte string. Hardly going to lag you is it?

And people *You can DISABLE IT*
Patchou
The size of the data that will be sent for an average user is 200 bytes (I really mean bytes, not kilobytes). If you use every single feature of Plus!, about 500 bytes will be sent. The data will besent only once a week: if this lags you, that's probably because you are using a modem connected on the PS2 port of your computer (and if that's the case, I want a photo! pp.gif).
Ben™
QUOTE(Patchou @ Sep 18 2004, 08:38 AM)
if this lags you, that's probably because you are using a modem connected on the PS2 port of your computer (and if that's the case, I want a photo! msn_tongue.gif).
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Me too, rofl msn_tongue.gif
Zero1
QUOTE(Patchou @ Sep 17 2004, 10:38 PM)
The size of the data that will be sent for an average user is 200 bytes (I really mean bytes, not kilobytes). If you use every single feature of Plus!, about 500 bytes will be sent. The data will besent only once a week: if this lags you, that's probably because you are using a modem connected on the PS2 port of your computer (and if that's the case, I want a photo! pp.gif).
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Or you may want to replace your ISA modem pp.gif

user posted image
Johnny_Mac
QUOTE(XxRebelSeanxX @ Sep 16 2004, 03:50 PM)
He wants to know were to focus his attention to what features. And find more bugs in those featuers..

And excuse me. Just because you have 3000 posts dont mean anything. I have over 1000 and have been there for like 5 months unlike you who have been there for years.

WDZ   USA 03-28-2002 4453
CookieRevised   Belgium 07-29-2003 4385
Guido   Buenos Aires, Argentina 12-09-2002 4050
Choli   Requena - Valencia - España 01-09-2003 3713
Chrono   Santiago, Chile 04-21-2002 3660
Mnjul   Taiwan 11-09-2002 3440
Patchou   Quebec, Canada 04-21-2002 3352
Wabz   My bedroom 01-08-2003 3132
BooGhost   Hyrule, PERU 05-07-2003 3093

Those have 3000 posts. Why the hell does it matter? post counts don't matter. Just to letcha know.
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Sean, You should really keep msgplus rants on the msgplus forums. If this were my forum i'd be pretty pi**ed your crap was spilling over here. msn_sarcastic.gif

QUOTE(CookieRevised @ Sep 16 2004, 04:15 PM)
eg: If the Schedule is the most used feature, he will develop it further to include more options and things. If the Schedule is the less used feature it is left alone and no further development is done for that...
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Sounds great, but then stuff that never gets a mention, never gets improved, doesnt even get thought about builds up, and you end up with dead stuff that everyones forgotten about. Surely phazing stuff out with the information would keep it fresh and updated?

QUOTE(anand @ Sep 17 2004, 04:46 PM)
Well on dialup connection like mine, I don't want to keep sending data and waste my bandwidth.
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hah. pp.gif
Sorry, had to laugh. msn_grin.gif

My min-rant:
I can see the whole purpose on adding this, very useful to a developer. I'm just apprehensive because I know most people will jump on the security issue bandwagon. Not that they'd even be a security issue. msn_dunno.gif
Ivan
It's out. msn_cool.gif
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